Do not add Google Play Integrity integration #19
Replies: 294 comments 341 replies
|
Furthermore I am surprised this is considered an important next step, given apps like the Dutch identity app Yivi (who has no such dependency) already exist and can be used for age verification by the government just fine (on the few select platforms that work with it). Yivi is even available on Open Source app stores like F-Droid. I think Yivi's existence should be sufficient proof that Google Play Integrity integration is unnecessary. Yivi (formerly IRMA) homepage: https://yivi.app/en/ |
|
Worth a caveat before Yivi gets held up as the privacy-clean benchmark. Its NFC passport flow isn't dependency-free either. From the issuer source ( So the authenticity guarantee comes from sending your full MRZ and facial image to a central server plus a third-party biometric service. Yivi says it's transient and the issuer is self-hostable, fair enough, but that's still a central-issuer dependency, not "no dependency." It's a different trust concentration than device attestation, not an obviously smaller one. Refs: |
|
This this seems to be a fork of the EUDI wallet, see also: |
|
In addition, tying age verification to specific operating systems and their vendors (large American tech companies) violates two of the three principles listed elsewhere in this org:
|
|
Furthermore, from https://ageverification.dev/Technical%20Specification/architecture-and-technical-specifications/#24-design-principles -
Tying age verification to specific operating systems will directly violate this design principle. |
|
Digital sovereignty is a necessary step to reduce the risks of data processing. There should be no dependencies for external services from third parties at all since each one adds a whole ecosystem of potential security issues. |
|
This is insane, what's the threat model? Someone remotely exploiting a device to steal proof of age of majority just to watch p__n (most common use case)? Is it even realistic? Why does this service need an app at all? Just create a modern web app, maybe even leveraging Digital Credentials API. I'm tired of app-for-everything. |
|
This happens because those who draft the technical specifications don't know how the technologies they propose work. As I've explained elsewhere, this is ridiculous. Here's a brief excerpt from one of my posts elsewhere:
There are dozens of ways to secure these apps' certificates without using proprietary systems. |
Does it need to protect those certificates at all? Maybe I'm too naive, but couldn't this simply be implemented by verifying random challenge signed by a national identity provider?
Avoids having to protect the signed challenge at all since it's single use, scheme is similar to authenticating with SSH or WebAuthn. I haven't checked the architecture thorough, perhaps does something similar in the end with more bloat in between. |
I agree, however given the people* currently see the internet helped by certain incidences (*cough* Roblox *cough*) I'm not very hopeful that this view will change in the near future. Maybe it could change once the system is implemented and fails horribly but that will take time. * Note: With "people" I don't just mean politicians. I've heard this from clueless parents as well as people from the "I've nothing to hide"-crowd that truly believe there is no way this could ever go wrong. |
|
What the hell is a p__n website? |
|
Porn, pornography. I see no reason fo the self-censorship here. |
|
I was just following the format of the post I was originally responding to |
|
I know, I know. It wasn't aimed at you, @lukefromdc |
|
Please listen the ongoing issues with the Italian Wallet related to Play Integrity: mega thread: Duplicates: |
|
Fuck Google |
|
A mandatory Google account is unacceptable in a OSS Project |
|
*FOSS |
|
Getting access to a website as a EU citizen by accepting the TOS of EU-penalized American megacorp is peak 1984. |
|
Besides the privacy issues, this feels like South Korea's IE6 problem back in the days, everything was so tied and dependent on it, that they couldn't get rid of it. But I guess we are just humans repeating mistakes, getting influenced by lobbyists, uninformed people, people who can't imagine how things will look like in 10 or more years |
|
This would be massive hinderance to all South EU states, where adoption of non google phones is large. This would be also massive dependency on google. Furthermore, why on earth are you building digital ids but then not doing IDPs, then forcing users to use some extra app for agecheck... they and their OS maintains... It is bad UX, it causes issues, not sure if adds any security. |
|
I work in cybersecurity and this is a privacy and security nightmare. Just stop. Using a EU-controlled website with national credentials like it is proposed here #18 is the only reasonable solution. Or maybe just do not implement this at all. People are going to go to p*** websites a way or another anyway. |
|
This is one sane response. I will word it differently: if this cannot be implemented without hurting A LOT OF PEOPLE, then maybe it should not be implemented to solve just one problem. |
|
Stop hardware attestation at all cost. This is the final warning, if you keep ignoring it, age verification will be a small inconvenience compared to the nightmare which any "attestation" brings. WAKE UP PEOPLE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE You will literally destroy computing if you agree to any "attestation". DO NOT AGREE TO THEIR DEMANDS, DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS. DO NOT USE HARDWARE ATTESTATION AND AGE CHECKS. |
|
We also need to stop ALL of this age verification crap including for porn. Fire up Torbrowser if your ISP is blocking foreign porn sites, and get your porn from sites in countries that do not honor the laws of age verification regimes. Do the same for Mastodon if non age verification compliant servers get blocked. Walk away from Facebook, Google, and any other site you find asking for age verification. Online like offline proofs of identity should only ever be used for interaction with government and things like banking. Never should any website be surfed with age and identity verification. |
|
It is simple silly to tie anything governmental to specific technologies. It should be based on open standards anyone can implement and integrate with. |
|
The German implementers currently don't even plan to offer a reproducible build, as far as I can tell: https://gitlab.opencode.de/bmi/eudi-wallet/wallet-development-documentation-public/-/work_items/4#note_735094 Pretty disastrous and sad. This seems to be in part due to the OWASP guidelines that the EU somehow thinks are good: https://mas.owasp.org/MASVS/11-MASVS-RESILIENCE/ I brought up some criticism here: OWASP/masvs#757 But the debate is still ongoing... |
|
I dont believe in age verification at all. Its some more east german stasi bs. Where is freedom? Every youngster will probably go to tor or whatever to access a social network is that what we want? While they are at it they might get up to slightly more nefarious dark web things like ordering a hit on their teach. |
|
Seems like a relevant text: https://gitlab.opencode.de/bmi/eudi-wallet/wallet-development-documentation-public/-/work_items/13 Perhaps worth linking to others. |
|
They are doing their part helping youngsters get comfortable with dark web. |
|
I have neither google nor apple software. Will I be unable to use a myriad of online services if I don't bow and give my money and my data to American corporations? Another shot in the foot, as usual. |
|
Currently, in some countries like Germany the answer according to latest plans seems to be yes: https://gitlab.opencode.de/bmi/eudi-wallet/wallet-development-documentation-public/-/work_items/10 |
|
Fuck age verification and any kind of ID check online. If you support this, you might as well be okay with US tech dependency; the EU is not ruled by angels. If you think otherwise, you have been brainwashed by EU technocrats. |
|
The EU is worst than the US on some things |
|
This app is unconstitutional in my country, but that's besides the point I want to make now. If I don't agree to the terms of service of private companies, do I cease to be a citizen then? Might I also make a suggestion to devs to refrain from further developing evil? |
|
I'm embarrassed this even has to be said... It is sad that many politicians don't even see the implications here |
|
Or they understand They're all Zionist pawns, they do this on purpose |
|
I will never use this application and instead stop using my government's services if you force me to Android or iOS. |
what is ""funny"" is when people still thinks that they are USA-independent when they still use a AOSP-dependent operating system Only way to be usa-free on your mobile, is to NOT use iPhone/IOS (Apple), NOR AOSP/Android-variants from Google or others "OSS" projects. either it's on firefox, Appstore and Android-things, are just not permitted in our pratical lives, we switched everything to firefox on pc, and nowhere else for connected stuff. Lot of services removed. Apps are just evil in your pockets : they come into your phone, you never know what they really do, neither how long they are going to stay. Like malware. when ppl asks us "pls install the app, tell us when it's done", we proudly show them our plastic-kb based dumbphone, they understand immediately that we can't install it on them, and that they will have to process anyway otherwise. Sometimes we take pleasure to answer "yes, no problem, provide us the device you ask for the app, at your (service provider) fees." It's funny to see their face until they realize that we are not kidding : we await them to provide the device, we wont buy a iAndrothing just to make things simplier for THEM. Smartphone is just all privileges traditionally belong to customers, moved instead toward provider services. So we wiped lot of services from our practical life... Freedom !! :D i do love that one :
|
|
Forcing people to own either an iPhone or Android in order to participate in society is absurd. You must bend over for crApple or Goolag, or you are not a citizen. In-fact, you may not even pass as human: https://support.google.com/recaptcha/answer/16609652 The gatekeeper duopoly is cementing themselves in at the infrastructure level.... Revive antitrust. |
I take a huge pleasure to never go to such countries, especially CN or RU. Im starting to think that their leaders are human errors, period. Sorry, it's less rude than force a whole population to have "the app", as it's a humanity mistake proven by forcing them. Worst is in sweeden, where a kid not having a smartphone cannot interact with lot of services, even if it's a parenting error to give a phone to a less than 10yo kid with unlimited internet etc... They have decided of their loss, that's it. like I say frequently, Google is clearly the spy that Platimir Voutine would love to have. the ONLY solution is to go to a non iphone and non android-like system, and to force them to switch back to do without the app. It's the only solution for customers : not comply with "we force the app". |
|
I'm not talking about CN or RU, I kinda doubt it's like that in RU actually I'm talking about Europe |
|
It is usually possible to not use online banking and limit interaction with government services either to in their office or with a dedicated device used for nothing else and Faraday bagged when not in use. An example: a phone used only to keep a drivers license, never touching any other data, with location always off, and Faraday bagged when not in intentional use is basically the same privacy problem the driver's license itself is. It's a much bigger problem if a Google ACCOUNT is required for this device. The risk of a leak is more than doubled if Google gets access to the data-and Google will attempt to use it to deanonymize any other interactions with them. |
|
Why would you need a phone to have a driver's license? |
|
Because the politicians are getting paid by the Nazi tech bros They're all corrupt Nazis |
|
Just an example. So-called "digital drivers licenses" are an option in some
jurisdictions, I was thinking more if the law tests for new applicants and the
renewal forms went mobile-only
…On 7/20/2026 at 1:43 AM, "nukeop" ***@***.***> wrote:
Why would you need a phone to have a driver's license?
--
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub:
https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-
specification/discussions/19#discussioncomment-17693534
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.
Message ID: <eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-
***@***.***>
|
Digital Sovereignty – Do not bundle a remote weaponizable kill-switch!The point is: If an app for wallets is dependent on Google Play Services and SafetyNET/"Play Integrity" or similar US-centric services, a US company (or thus, politician influencing or forcing them, whatever), could effectively disable all of the digital wallets of all German citizens remotely with as little as a switch. This would render, if such apps would be used/deployed widely, a whole economy and many citizens impossible to do basic things like dunno… driving a car if you have your car drivers license in there. Effectively thus a very powerful digital "cyber" weapon if you go so far. If you think this is far-fetched okay… Another similar, but related and more subtle attack/problem, would occur because IIRC device details and possibly even login details are used in the attestation by Google. In such a way, not only the whole app could be stopped working for all app users, but also for single/targeted users. Think of politicians, journalists, activists that cannot travel anymore then etc. Similar things did already happen, so this is not a theoretical risk. This is the actual point of digital sovereignty and I think few examples demonstrate this as strongly as the planned "wallet app" here. Thus, please strongly ethink whether and what attestation you want in such an app. And who/what you really prove. One does not need to go very technical, but any attestation that calls back to Google or so to "verify" a device is also **a **monopoly enabler in the economic sense and thus also. It also does not have to be politicians. What if, the next time, the EU convicts Google to pay a fine, Google just stops access for such a critical digital infrastructure. Or if it just threatens? Even if not done, this is a massive threat potential. So do you really need that? If so, which level, really? Would not it be enough to store the trusted key material in a secure chip? If not, could not you at least allow post-market CustomROMs, also? Or generally allow other attestation models? Or generally just the bare Android attestation and explicitly not depending on Google Play Integrity? Yes, this is possible technically and makes a massive difference here! Because of all of the reasons, it allows for (more) digital sovereignty than – willingly – bundling a remote kill-switch into your app that is supposed to be used by ll EU citizens. Cross-posted from the related German discussion, but relevant for all the EU, thus also posted here. |
|
I'm not sure why people are trying to improve this pile of shit of a project Even China does not have something that creepy (payments usually rely on a private company for instance) |
|
I have written an idea for an alternative in #64. |
|
Forcing European citizens to be customers of Google, an American company, is shameful. The people involved in the decision making for this app should be ashamed of themselves. |
|
Or just skip it and use a smart card (which already exists, BTW). |
Do you have a link? And is that smart card available in all EU countries? |
It is available everywhere but in Denmark, though Denmark does have an equivalent system. The idea is not necessarily a smart card, but a government Web portal issuing the age certificates. How exactly you log into that portal is not very relevant. |
and others
Uh oh!
There was an error while loading. Please reload this page.
In the README, the following is listed:
I would like to strongly urge to abandon this plan. Requiring a dependency on American tech giants for age verification further deepens the EU's dependency on America and the USA's control over the internet. Especially in the current political climate I hope I do not have to explain how undesirable and dangerous that is.
All reactions