sidhariyal - #29
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Added sidhariyal tamil
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Add further sidhariyal translations |
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| <h2>Star names</h2> | ||
| <p>Most of traditional western star names came from Ancient Tamil Nadu.</p> |
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Please give three examples of common names for bright stars used in the Modern (previously called "western") skyculture to prove this. (transcription+translation)
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Hi @gzotti ,
Thank you for your prompt response and for bringing this matter to my attention. I sincerely apologize for the oversight in my previous statement regarding the origins of traditional western star names. Our aim was to emphasize the similarities between western celestial cartography and the ancient Tamil Nadu constellations, which are depicted in temple carvings dating back over a millennium ago. Additionally, we sought to facilitate a better understanding by enabling readers to correlate these similarities.
That being said, there are also a few star names that bear similarities with Tamil culture. Here are a few examples for your reference:
Alnilam (Epsilon Orionis):
• Transcription: ஆழ்நிலம் (Aalnilam)
• Translation: The Centre, The God Siva
Aldebaran (Alpha Tauri):
• Transcription: ஆலமரத்தடியான் (Ālamarattaṭiyāṉ)
• Translation: The Reddish One, The God Siva
Menkalinan (Beta Aurigae):
• Transcription: மென்காளினான் (Meṉkāḷiṉāṉ)
• Translation: Shoulder of the Charioteer
While numerous references to Tamil celestial cartography exist in Tamil, I've located a YouTube video in English for your convenience. You can access it through this link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Ifepa_O-I).
I will correct and resubmit for your review. Thanks again.
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| Aql "Aquila" _("கருடன்") | |||
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If this shall be a "traditional" SC, it likely has no modern constellations like Scutum or the others for which you don't provide (wrongly) a Tamil name. Again, the "name" in _("name") must contain English transcription and translation if different from the common names. Else Tamil names are provided by translating the common constellation names in Transifex.
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Understood. The team's primary objective was to make Stellarium accessible to Tamil-speaking Farmers and Stargazers who may not be proficient in English. During our exploration of available options, I observed that simply altering the _("name") parameter addressed our goal effectively. Leveraging the Western Sky Culture as a foundation due to its significant parallels, we proceeded to modify the _("name") to its Tamil equivalent. To avoid Transifex, can I follow something like Aql "கருடன்" _("Karutan")?
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To translate names from the default culture, you use Transifex. This is by far the simplest way to present an almost-identical-to-western/modern SC for your people. This is the usual case for a 21st century living tradition (usually among amateur astronomers) that incorporates the scientifically canonized 88 constellations. All "modern-"`sky cultures use these IAU constellations (regions).
If having an independent "traditional" SC is important, where maybe 80% of figures is identical, it still must be started as translatable skyculture. No translator on Transifex could translate "கருடன்" into any useful string for English, German, Russian, French, Italian, Spanish etc. without knowing Tamil. (Same goes with other non-European scripts. Sorry, we are usually illiterate here!) If you provide the format Aql "கருடன்" _("Karutan"), all Tamils can set the SC display to "original" and see their text in their script. Non-Tamils interested in the SC can use "translated" and see "Karutan" which at least helps in pronunciation. Now, on Transifex, again no translator would know what Karutan means unless he knows Tamil. Understood as proper name, it likely gets copied into all the other languages as-is, maybe further transliterated like "kaрутaн" (?) in Russian. If it is supposed to just mean "Eagle", this information is lost in the process. Therefore, the best format currently would be Aql "கருடன்" _("Karutan (Eagle)") [if Karutan means eagle, which I don't know.]
If you want to present a contemporary SC used by today's amateurs in your region, you would usually create a "modern-Tamil" SC. This would use the 88 IAU constellations and borders (so that you could discuss discoveries with the international community), but may show slightly different lines or artwork. (Maybe slight animal changes, like Buffalo/Taurus.) Regional specialties, where older traditions are incompatible with Ptolemy's constellations, could then be also added in the asterisms. However, when the Tamil SC has not been derived only in the 19th/20th century from European sources, but has an independent much older tradition with links to early oriental astronomy (Ptolemy, Babylon, ...), then all the modern constellations which are not traditional Tamil constellations, like Scutum, Sextans, Pictor, Fornax etc., should be removed. The same goes with all star names. The SC files should only include names actually used in that culture, with additional accurate reference links to source books, or provide in the description some information if and why information/data from other cultures is presented. In any case, a good description text is mandatory to be of interest to our users.
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Noted with thanks, I'll incorporate it.
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| # Ray helpers (no asterisms as fact) | |||
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Are those asterisms (figures outside the IAU88 canonized constellations) genuine Tamil or 1990s Western tradition? In the latter case, just omit the asterism* files.
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Thanks & Understood, will follow accordingly.
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| # Ramesh Jayal Version 0.01 | |||
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Format clearly described in the User Guide, 9.3.3:
the second column may contain the native spelling, optimally with English transliteration added. The third, "name" in _("name"), MUST use English characters (transliteration of the name if you want to give pronunciation help by international users, name or translation if translatable) to allow translation. You may also provide a table in the description. To just translate planet names into Tamil for Tamil users, do that on Transifex.
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Noted with thanks, I'll incorporate it.
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| # Reference file for Western skyculture | |||
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This should list references for the sidhariyal skyculture.
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Noted with thanks, I'll incorporate it.
| 58001|_("Phad") 18,38 | ||
| 58001|_("Phekda") 23 | ||
| 59774|_("கிருட்டினன்") 1,2,6,11,12,18,23,37,38 | ||
| 59774|_("கிருட்டினன்") 37 |
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If this is the same as the line above, just delete this line! The original file likely has two different spellings, one only used in Ref.37 (in addition to the first spelling variant).
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Noted with thanks, I'll incorporate it.
| # star names by constellation | ||
| # Andromeda (And) | ||
| 677|_("உத்திரட்டாதி 2/முரசு") 1,2,5,6,11,12,37,38 | ||
| 677|_("Sirrah") 23,37 |
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Overall, names not used in Tamil tradition should be deleted. To just show "Western" names translated to Tamil, translate them in Transifex.
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Noted with thanks, I'll incorporate it.
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I've implemented the suggested changes. Please review. |
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| Gdn "Garudan" _("கருடன்") | |||
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As mentioned before, this formatting makes the file untranslatable for all but your culture. We could host it for optional download, but it will certainly not go into the main package.
As described in the User Guide, the required format is
Abbr "OriginalNameInOriginalGlyphs" _("Translatable name in European characters")
The preferred format that helps all translators and lets other people learn from your contribution is:
Abbr "OriginalNameInOriginalGlyphs" _("Name or transliteration in European characters (English translation)")
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| <h1>Vinniyalum Valviyalum's Siddhar Iyal Sky Chart</h1> | |||
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the ".en." in the filename indicates this to be the English version. It is a copy of the Czech version above.
The English text is the most important description. It is the master from which translators will hopefully create translations to other languages.
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The English description is currently missing, and it is still not clear how much this is "traditional" or "21th century Tamil stargazer knowledge". Fornax, Reticulum, Scutum, Sextans and likely a few more are certainly no original Tamil inventions. And the asterisms are at first glance also copies from "modern". Are all asterisms listed here known and used? If we understand 'traditional' in the sense "whatever has been imported into current use and living practice", it may be OK. Now it depends on what the actual description will say. If it is a Tamil version of the IAU-approved 88 constellations, the canonical 88 IAU abbreviations should be used together with Tamil names and their English translations. If a few names deviate in this tradition, this can be explained. If Garudan is at the same location as Aquila=Eagle, It should be written as Aql "கருடன்" _("Garudan (Eagle)") The first part of this translation helps users read and pronounce the Tamil word. The second part teaches the meaning. In the ideal case, it will be clear from the explanatory string in brackets or from the accompanying text given in description.en.utf8 whether that is just the transliteration of the Tamil word for 'eagle', or a particular named specimen of eagle commemorated in a story told at the fireplace from grandparents to grandchildren, the legendary eagle called 'Garudan'. Tamil users can display this immediately in their native spelling with Skyculture setting "Original spelling", while others will most likely use their language (unless they are learning Tamil or want to analyze a third-party Tamil star map). And there will likely come a Transifex string for "Garudan (Eagle)" to be translated also to Tamil. It will be up to the Transifex translators for Tamil to decide what string to give here. When "Garudan" actually just means "eagle", the Tamil Transifex translation for "Garudan (Eagle)" will obviously not be "கருடன் (கருடன்)" but "கருடன்", closing the translation circle. IMHO stellarium's original constellation artwork files should not be renamed. There are large and small image files of the same large long-legged slim dog. Are the celestial dogs of the same kind? In European tradition they are usually depicted as (large) hunting dog and some smallish pet dog of very different breed. But it may be different of course in other parts of the world. |
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I've implemented the suggested changes. Please review. |
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Thank you for the quick review and thoughtful suggestions. Your insights have been valuable in refining the Siddhar Iyal Skyculture. Regarding the delay in response, I appreciate your patience. Our team operates from remote regions of India, where internet connectivity and technical resources can be challenging. Despite these limitations, we are committed to ensuring that this Skyculture meets Stellarium’s guidelines and provides an authentic representation of Tamil astronomical traditions. We have made the necessary modifications and implemented the recommended changes:
The updated Skyculture code, along with the revised English description, has been submitted to GitHub. This version adheres more closely to Stellarium’s guidelines while preserving the essence of Tamil astronomy. |
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Did you close this intentionally? As for the data, some images have rather low quality, particularly PeriyaBairavar.png has lots of leftover bits around the main dog image, and Magisasuran.png has noticeable compression artifacts all over the place, especially noticeable on the bull. |
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Thank you for the reminder! I accidentally closed it, but I have now reopened it for review. We truly appreciate your feedback and will work on implementing the recommendations in the upcoming release. In the meantime, may I kindly request you to review other parts of the Skyculture and consider merging if possible? This would help make the Skyculture accessible to a wider audience. Please let me know your thoughts. Your guidance and support are greatly valued! |
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I've implemented the suggested changes. Please review. |
| 110003|_("சதயம் 5/செக்கு_Sadhayam5(Ancha)") 1,2,11,12 | ||
| 111497|_("சதயம் 6/செக்கு_Sadhayam6(Sadalsix)") | ||
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| 113136|_("கும்பம் 1_Kumbam1(Aquarius1)") 1,2,6,11,12,23 |
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please insert spaces before brackets and numbers, everywhere.
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Also, this file should only contain the translatable (English/transcribed) names. The native names should be moved into a separate file: star_names.ta.fab.
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Hi Gzotti, I have removed the references numbers along with spaces. I hope, that should be fine.
Hi 10110111, I have separated the English and Tamil text, however, the Tamil star names can not be seen. can you advise the .ta. is the correct code for Tamil language as per Stellarium?
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I have removed the references numbers along with spaces.
The first comment asked for spaces, e.g. Yazh2(Lyra2) would become Yazh 2 (Lyra 2).
I have separated the English and Tamil text, however, the Tamil star names can not be seen.
I think the native file isn't read by the old code that supports this sky culture format. Actually, you never see native star names in Stellarium except when using the corresponding locale. This native-name file only serves a role of documentation and also is used when converting the SC to the new format, from which hopefully these names will be displayed in the future. @gzotti Am I right? Should we maybe display the native names in the info panel among all the others?
To actually have Tamil text displayed you'll need to supply translations to Tamil after this SC has been merged.
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Actually I was not aware that star_names.<lang-other-than-eng>.fab was ever used. I thought it was a name prepared for multilinguality like the descriptions, but never actually implemented like this, with translations only going by single strings. Would your converter integrate data from such other-language files?
Now, this will not make it into 25.1 in any case, and therefore should best be upgraded to the new format ASAP. In 25.2, we should have labeling options that include any useful combination of separate native, transcription and translation, ... entries.
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Thank you for your review and valuable feedback. Based on your comments, can I assume that the Siddhar Iyal Sky Culture is now ready for merging into Stellarium? If so, would it be possible to include it in version 25.2, or even in 25.1 if the timeline permits?
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We have given technical comments so far. Version 25.1, to be released around next week, will bring a fully new file format and a converter with which you will hopefully be able to convert your work into the new format so that you can test and further enhance it with V25.1.
The actual content of the skyculture should then be reviewed and evaluated by SC expert @sushoff, taking our previous comments into account.
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Hi @gzotti,
Noted, and thank you for the guidance. To align our planning, could you confirm if the following steps are correct?
- Post-Release Conversion: Once version 25.1 is released, my team will use the converter tool (which I assume will be included in the application download) to migrate our existing Sky Culture to the new format.
- Unit Testing & Commit: My team will conduct unit testing in version 25.1 to ensure compatibility and stability. Once validated, we will commit the updated code within this same pull request (sidhariyal #29).
- Code Review: @sushoff will review the changes, provide feedback, and approve the updates as needed.
- Final Merge & Release: Once all feedback is addressed and the implementation is in good shape, the changes will be merged and included in the release.
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- star_names.fab ... line 393 paranthesis missing
- constellationsart.fab ... why are lines 1, 15, 17 uncommented?
- constellation_names.eng.fab line 34 "Viruchigam (Scorpio)": 'Scorpio' is an Italian word; it's used in astrology but not in astronomy - please either use proper Latin "Scorpius" or English "scorpion"
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- In the first paragraph: please state the geographical region and time /epoch (since) when this sky culture was/has been used
- a CC- licence statement must be chosen and clearly stated in the description: highly likely CC-BY, but perhaps you want more restrictions (e.g. NC for non-commercial, ND for no derivatives = others are not allowed to change). Note that the Stellarium team has now legal means. You need to declare it in order to have the legal means to open a case in case of misue.
- scientifically: please give a list of reference = at least the manuscripts the developer group has read (as you state).
- in my view, it does not make any sense to use the modern constellation artwork for historical cultures. Please try to find historical artwork from your culture that matches the depictions (cf. "Babylonian MUL.APIN" where this was done successfully: no historical star charts are preserved from this time, but the artwork there is not taken from all sorts of art - depictions on seals, stones, palace walls...)
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| <h3>You can connect with us on various social media platforms. Feel free to visit us through any of the links below:</h3> | ||
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| <p>Facebook: <font color="#000080"><u><a href="https://www.facebook.com/vinniyalumvalviyalum">https://www.facebook.com/vinniyalumvalviyalum</a></u></font></p> |
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Add further sidhariyal translations